How to choose your career: Interview with Dr. Debra Condren
In 2018, I published a book about how to choose your career. In 2024, I moved the content to this site. Below is the interview with Dr. Debra Condren.
Surveys indicate that a majority of Americans wish they had a different job. Why do you think so many people are unhappy with their work?
Starting with school—high school, college, and beyond—many people simply do what they know. They don’t know what they don’t know about career opportunities that are out there in the real and rapidly changing world we live in today. They might, by default, follow in their family’s footsteps, or make career choices based on what everyone else tells them they “should” be doing, rather than seek out, according to their own sensibilities, options that fit their unique passions, talents, and goals.
As an example, I worked with a recent college grad client. She is a very talented young adult and was a double major in a hard science and communications. She loved communications and aced those classes. She hated the hard sciences. I asked her why she majored in science. She said that her mother is a physician, her father is a surgeon, and her uncle is a physician, too. When she headed off to college, she had planned to become a doctor.
She did testing-based career assessment and personality assessment with me. No one had ever offered these tools to her before. Even the young adults going to the most expensive Ivy League schools aren’t getting these resources, even at schools with career services offices. As a result, kids aren’t learning what they love, what they were born to do — and, even more important, how to train and translate those talents into skills that are in demand once they hit the job market.
People are unhappy because they don’t know how to identify what fires them up and inspires them; they don’t know how to align their passions and talents with real-world industries and jobs and companies. No one teaches them how to map that out.
I watched American Idol recently and there was a twentysomething coal miner from West Virginia. His grandfather and father and uncle and brother and all his neighbors were coal miners. He said that he, too, wanted a steady and stable job, so he, too, became a coal miner. But on American Idol, he was chasing a dream. Before he discovered this opportunity to try doing something he had a passion for, coal mining was what he knew; he chose that path because he didn’t know about myriad other opportunities out there. He never had a coach or mentor. He never got to do job shadowing or interning or apprenticing. He never got to try on different roles for a week or a month or a semester. But then he stretched himself and a whole new world of opportunities opened up for him.
People who are unhappy in their work don’t realize that there are other options—and that they aren’t trapped. They don’t realize they can plan a job transition or get moonlight training for something fresh and new even while they keep the full-time job that pays the bills. They are unhappy because they don’t have a guide to teach them how to break down the action steps needed to find a meaningful, challenging job that pays them what they are worth — and allows them to make the contribution they were born to make.
Think about it.
Instead of coming home from work at night and having dinner and a glass of wine and watching Bravo all night, what if you spent an hour each night doing things that will lead to a career transition? What if you also spent an hour each morning? What if you read Inc. or Fast Company or an industry trade publication? You could be reading about inspiring people, and seeing what they are doing, and learning from their stories about how to launch your own career course correction. You could be researching and seeing what is out there and planning how to get from where you are to where you want to be. You could be updating your resume and chasing leads and following up — and then pretty soon you realize there exists a whole world of opportunities that have your name written all over them. You start networking on LinkedIn and find six degrees of separation. You show up at an interesting-sounding conference or event, even if you are a little bit afraid to put yourself out there. And you begin, step by step, to make changes to proactively move yourself out of an unfulfilling situation into something meaningful and rewarding.
But most people think, believe, that their bad career situation is the bed they’ve made, and now they have to lie in it. They end up doing what Thoreau wrote about: leading lives of quiet desperation.
There seems to be a trend in media recently arguing that trying to pursue happiness at work (especially searching for passion) actually makes people less happy. Can you comment about that?
Anyone who is bashing the notion of finding work that is your grand passion is someone you should ignore. Don’t listen to those people. It sells magazines and gets TV ratings to say that pursuing passion is a waste of time, but people have a right to pursue meaningful, challenging work that earns them a good living. We have a choice to make the most of our one, precious life, to dedicate ourselves to finding a fulfilling career.
More days than not, you deserve to bounce out of bed looking forward to going to work, eager to learn more and build up new skills, train formerly neglected talents, and build new expertise. You aren’t going to be happy each moment of each and every day, but you deserve to be happy in your career a lot of the time.
Some writers are rightfully noticing a sense of entitlement among younger people and noticing they are reluctant to pay their dues. This does hamper happiness in a career if your expectations are unrealistic. You probably aren’t going to have your dream job from Day 1 right out of high school or college, and if this is your expectation, it will bite you in the behind. But to avoid unhappiness, be strategic and use resources out there, like good solid career coaches and advisors ... my bias is to hire business and industrial or organizational psychologists who know how to use the best career and personality assessments and line up the results with current, fresh, real-world opportunities. That’s the best way to map out what the options are and what you need to do to make it happen.
We all have a contribution that we were born to make, and we owe it to ourselves—and to the world—to find out what it is we were meant to do, to be. It takes a long time to become an overnight success. This is not just happy talk … it takes hard work and diligence and constant learning and self-development—and discipline—to train your mind and talents, but it is so worth it to stay your own passionate career course.
Is it just wishful thinking that people can leave a bad career situation when jobs are scarce? How do you help people decide whether to stay or go?
No, it is not just wishful thinking. It is wishful thinking to think you can leave a bad career situation tomorrow. But you can participate in careful assessment and then map out a short-term, intermediate, and long-term strategic plan to bridge the gap between a job that you hate and a job you will enjoy and love. But you have to be smart and systematic. And you have to get a good coach and/or pull together your own dream team of informal advisory board members that you can check in with via an e-mail question or a phone call to get input and advice. You have to find the courage to say, “I’m pursuing this career goal, or this professional transition, and I am hoping that you will be willing to be one of my advisors.”
You need to identify people who would be great mentors. Then spell out exactly what you need, such as a periodic 20-minute phone call to bounce ideas off of them and get their frank feedback. You can set up conference calls for free, and you e-mail the person three questions you want to address during the call. You should record the call so you can be fully engaged rather than frantically scribbling down notes.
You have to challenge yourself not to just say, “Yeah, but that won’t work for me,” because that’s a sure way to turn off your advisors. Listen with an open mind. Take the time to consider and absorb the advice they offer.
Once you get moving and begin turning your career goals into results, keep in touch with your advisors, because there is nothing more rewarding to a mentor than knowing they have contributed to helping a young—or an older—ambitious person achieve a goal or make a hard-won, inspiring change.
If you are stuck and you hate your job and you hear on the news that there are no jobs—so you might as well get depressed and just plan to die in your current job—do a “news fast,” meaning avoid the doom and gloom, shock and awe, ratings-chasing news. Don’t listen to the talking heads go on and on about how bad the economy is.
You have to be very careful what you feed your psyche. Especially before bedtime, turn off the TV and radio and read something inspirational about thinking positively. This isn’t just airy-fairy. What you put into your mind before you fall asleep shapes your sleep and your unconscious. When you wake up in the morning, take three minutes, before your feet hit the ground, to read another inspirational sentence or paragraph.
Doing this profoundly changes your attitude and mindset and psychology so that you are open, and mindful; this practice allows you to set yourself up to spot and meet the right people; it opens you up to really hearing and taking in opportunities they tell you about, or that you read about or hear about via unexpected synchronistic avenues. If you don’t have the right mindset or psychology, you will miss “seeing” these opportunities. But if you prepare yourself, you will recognize the opportunities when they show up — and this mindset of being prepared makes all the difference when it comes to realizing your most ambitious dreams.
It is very easy to go unconscious and to settle into a bad routine. But settling into a negative, unfulfilling routine keeps you from creating solutions that will make you happy. Instead, buy—or go to the library and borrow — great books; subscribe to inspiring publications; order educational CDs or online courses. You don’t necessarily have to go back to school. Anthony Robbins didn’t go to college. He even lived out of his car and worked the night shift as a janitor when he was young and ambitious, but without resources. The young Tony Robbins was determined; he read 700 books in a few short years; he was a self-taught, single-mindedly focused young man who has now made a tremendous impact on countless thousands of lives. Use him and other inspirational role models to feed your mind and expand your thinking.
If you don’t like to read, listen to CDs or podcasts when you are driving or subwaying to and from work. That’s a great time to change your mindset. Do whatever you can do to expand your knowledge. Make this a lifelong commitment.
Look for those two extra hours per day. Instead of sitting at your computer and working through lunch, take 15 minutes and go into a quiet corner where you take your book, or an article from the Wall Street Journal, or Inc., and read something about your potential new career. Take a 15-minute walk every day, because doing that changes your state from nose-to-the-grindstone rat on the treadmill to someone who feels more optimistic about new options and fresh opportunities. Changing your mindset and taking positive, practical action literally changes your endorphins and hormones and adrenal glands and cortisol levels; change your mindset, change your brain, change your career outlook.
It all fits together. This is all about breaking the status quo, breaking the cycle of unconsciousness. You will break things open and have a fresh start. You will find brand-new opportunities that you didn’t even know existed. You may be inspired to go onto an alumni forum and find people with connections. Or to join a peer mentoring group or professional association. Once you get moving, you will find myriad other ways to get out of your rut. One thing leads to another.
Do you think that the process of career decision-making is the same for teenagers, for young adults, for middle-aged adults, and for older adults? Or are there generational and situational differences that readers should know about?
In general, the principles are similar, but developmentally, there are differences. Teenagers are in a very different place from young adults or middle-aged adults who have a lot of work and life experiences under their belts. And older adults might have more of a financial cushion to try something new, or more of a support system in place to provide professional advice and emotional support during career transitions.
What is similar is my recommendation to use scientifically developed and researched and normed career assessment tools. That piece of the process is the same. When the psychologist or career advisor starts the coaching process with assessments that are robust and measure what they say they are going to measure (not the free pop-psych tools on the web ... I’m talking about reliable and valid tools), that assessment process eliminates a ton of guesswork and false steps on your quest to finding your right career path. When you hire someone who uses these tools, you start out with a solid infrastructure.
If you are a teenager, you might be exploring which college and major to explore or which technical training to do. Your coach will guide you about how to be strategically mindful of the college majors you pick. Sample the 101-level courses for each possible major to see which appeal to you, versus those that will lead you down a disappointing career path. You might even be able to go after a double or triple major—if you plan carefully—without a lot of extra money and time.
If you are a mid-aged adult, maybe you became an attorney because everyone in your family became an attorney. Or an opportunity fell into your lap after college and you ended up on a career track for 10 years. You never really chose it and maybe now you hate what you are doing. A good career advisor will start with gold-standard career and personality assessments that are designed to help you figure out what you love to do, identify your strengths and weaknesses, and then match those talents and passions to your best-fit job opportunities.
Another item to decide is: What is your best work environment? Should you be in an old-school traditional company, or would you be best suited in a forward-thinking company, or do you have entrepreneurial DNA?
Learn everything you can. Even if you are a younger adult and you take a job that is entry-level, that apprentice-type learning can often lead to great opportunities. You can make the learning curve for yourself less steep. See if your company has benefits to allow you to have schooling or advanced training or certifications paid for. One young woman I worked with got her Chartered Financial Analyst (C.F.A.) designation funded by her company. She was unpopular at her company because while she was studying at night, everyone else was out partying. But she knew that someday, she planned to launch her own firm — and she wanted to take full advantage of all of the fully funded learning her company offered.
Don’t get overwhelmed. Remember that you don’t have to decide everything today; you just have to keep going forward. Take a course, read, talk to people, go to conferences, and stay open so that you can spot opportunities.
Whatever your age, train multiple talents and passions simultaneously. Often you can get a dual undergraduate or graduate degree without a lot of extra tuition cost or extra time. Maybe you get an M.D.—and an M.B.A.; or a joint J.D. or M.F.A.—and an M.B.A., with one extra year for the same price. The goal is that when you finish training, you’ve set yourself up so that you have multiple areas of expertise because that increases the demand for what you do. And this often will make you happier because you are doing different things, with more competencies, with more trained talents, rather than being stuck in the same tired old career grind that the herd buys into.
In your career, you have served as a source of expertise about women’s careers. Do women make career decisions differently from men? If so, should they?
It is changing somewhat, but in some ways, it isn’t changing. Some women have people cheering them on to pursue their most ambitious career dreams, and assuring them that they can have a fulfilling career—and, simultaneously, not settle with respect to their other precious priorities, like a relationship and children. But, even when women get encouragement and mentor cheerleaders, there are still ways that we, as ambitious women, hold ourselves back. For example, even women who come out of Ivy League M.B.A. programs don’t negotiate first and subsequent salaries; their male counterparts do negotiate, from their first job, right out of the gate. Women stand to lose $1 million to $2 million in lost lifetime earnings because of this unwillingness to negotiate for what they are worth.
A guy will go in and interview—and even if he is a new college graduate, he will negotiate. Women don’t ask for more; they’re afraid that they’ll lose the offer if they negotiate for what they are worth. Men, on the other hand, might say, “If you are going to pay me this lowball salary, or if I am interning with no compensation, I want a different title, and then they will suggest a specific title that looks better on their résumé. From the time they are in college, men don’t want to be called “intern.” They want a more descriptive title that casts what they do in the best possible light.
Or, for example, I know one young man who, right out of college a year ago, took a low-paying job with a small start-up with an uncertain future. His job was doing system checks for the company’s website functionality. But he knew that his boss, prior to launching this entrepreneurial venture, was a well-respected, top programmer in a hot new cloud programming field.
So the young man said, “I’ll do this job for you at this low salary, and I’ll work my tail off to help you make your business a success. But I want you to train me how to do this cloud programming so that I’ll be positioned to make a move with your company down the road, or fully trained for other opportunities should your venture not pan out.”
And his boss agreed. So he’s working hard doing the boring, low-paying work he’s good at, but he’s simultaneously being trained and setting himself up for future opportunities, including learning the ropes of starting a business so that he can perhaps launch his own entrepreneurial venture in the future. Fast-forward a year: The company didn’t make it, but the young man’s boss made good on his promise, and now that young man has just received multiple offers to do cloud programming for $75,000 per year and he knows that, once he builds his expertise and establishes himself as a competent contributor, he will quickly be able to command $150,000, given that there are so few qualified programmers in this emerging field.
Men also will explore what benefits are available in terms of tuition assistance or leadership coaching. Men will hire an executive coach and feel proud that they did. Many women feel shame about hiring an executive coach. Men will invite you to come coach them at the office and say, “Hey, everyone, this is my executive coach, Dr. Condren.” They are proud to hire you. Women will ask you to meet them at the Starbucks across the street because they are embarrassed about retaining a coach.
Women think it is a sign of weakness to ask for help. They feel that it makes them look like a fraud, or that they should know how to do their job without needing career advice and talent development.
Women also often don’t have built-in, informal advisory boards, like golf buddies who swap professional stories as they’re teeing up. So it is even more important for women to proactively set themselves up with people they trust, with mentors and advisors, so that they have expertise and support to guide them when they need it, just as their male counterparts do.
Maybe you will need an intellectual property attorney or an attorney to negotiate a contract for you. Or a C.P.A. to look under the hood of your entrepreneurial business. Or a seasoned business advisor or executive coach. Women should line up these resources before they need them.
It is empowering to have input from trusted others and to have sounding boards, whether through paid advisors or peer advisors. Women and men alike all need periodic feedback; we need a sounding board; we need a fresh perspective. Proactively pulling together your paid and unpaid career advisors eliminates needless mistakes and speeds your time to career and financial success and fulfillment. Lining up your resources is a powerful way to make your most ambitious goals a reality.
I know there are articles out there saying that women are penalized for negotiation, or for being too ambitious, but don’t listen to pessimistic messages that portray women as victims. Don’t read those articles. Tune out those news reports. Of course, there is a glass ceiling and sexism ... you can’t change that. The only thing you can change is how you view yourself and what you deserve. Learn how to be a better negotiator. There are time-tested, tried-and-true negotiation strategies that work. Learn those so that when you go in, you are more confident. Read the books. Take the courses. Become a savvy agent of your own career destiny. Don’t just say, “There’s no point because I’m going to be discriminated against.”
You can learn how to keep yourself from getting emotional and backing down. You can control how you present yourself physically. Are you negotiating in a kiwi green cardigan sweater and white pants that make you look like a secretary rather than an executive? Study how people dress and present themselves in roles you aspire to assume, and then take a page from their playbook.
The onus isn’t on your boss or company to make you a contender. The onus is on you to use smart strategies and tactics to get ownership of that project or to get that promotion or to land that dream job.
You can get savvy about keeping your name out there. You can’t assume that if you work hard like a good girl, you will get recognition. You don’t have to be the “B” word. You can do appropriate, assertive self-promotion with ethics and integrity. For example, keep your own KaChing! File. When a client tells you how great you were at spearheading a project, keep a record so that when promotion opportunities arise, you can remind decision makers why they should move you into that role. Then ask for more compensation — and an accelerated next salary review, perhaps within three months, not 12, after you are hired or promoted.
Also, realize that you can leave an environment that isn’t respectful. There are dead-end environments out there. If you find yourself in a job that is never going to promote you because you are a woman, it’s time to make a move. Start aggressively looking for a new environment where your talents and expertise will be appreciated—and where you will be paid what you are worth.
You are not a victim. There are elegant strategies for negotiating, even when decision makers are sexist. I recommend the book Women Don’t Ask: Negotiation and the Gender Divide by Linda Babcock and Sara Laschever.
If someone comes to you for help with career decision-making, what are some of the things you can do to help them arrive at a good decision?
I use a qualitative questionnaire to get a good sense of the client, a get-acquainted session of 30 minutes on the phone for clients to see if I’m the right fit to work with them, and then, if we agree to work together, I begin with hand-selected assessment tools that take clients two to three hours to complete online. I give back assessment results within one to two business days and I provide a phone coaching session that I audio record for clients to go over their results.
I brainstorm ideas with clients right out of the gate in our first coaching conversation. My coaching process is not sitting on Dr. Condren’s psychoanalytic couch for 10 years. I am not a Freudian and I don’t do clinical work. I am your career advisor, your business coach, your executive development partner. We roll up our sleeves and get to work to identify and hit your targets. I move quickly: Success loves speed. Then I encourage clients—and hold them accountable—to implement my recommendations, to try them on, to see what fits and feels right. I work with clients to launch fast, and then ride the momentum, moving quickly to results through a one-month to up to a one-year coaching program, depending on the individual’s needs, goals, and objectives.
In addition to individual coaching, I also place clients in telephone mastermind groups twice per month. One session is Q&A and one session is training or a guest speaker.
On average, how many different career paths do you think most people try before finding their best fit?
Most people try five to seven different career paths before finding their best fit. Coaching can streamline this process and change how people feel about this process. You may still try different things, but, with gold-standard career coaching, you will be doing so strategically rather than haphazardly or randomly.
I don’t give clients answers. I do ask a lot of questions, and I teach clients how to pay attention to the voice inside them and to do their own due diligence and research. I show my clients that they aren’t victims of external circumstances like the economy or sexism or anything else. I teach clients that they are the masters of their own career destiny.
Is there anything else you wish I had asked you that you want readers to know?
One of my favorite quotes is from Mary Oliver: “Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?” I want to see people being present in the moment and awake to opportunities or seeming coincidences that might turn into an opportunity. Showing up is 99% of the battle. Maybe you get an invitation to a professional dinner where you know you will probably meet someone interesting but you are exhausted and you think about not going, but my message is, “Just show up.” You never know what might happen. People turn down opportunities because they are too overwhelmed with the stress of daily life and they are caught up in a rut or daily grind. Once they see that very small investments of time and energy can lead to huge returns on investment, their optimism and enthusiasm for their commitment to finding their right career path returns, or is born for the first time.
Creating a career that you love and finding a way to make the contribution that you were born to make is a very creative process. I love Einstein’s quote: “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” It is about the mindset. Let your imagination run wild—and then back that imagination with knowledge.
The late Jim Roan said, “You are the average of the five people you spend the most time with.” You have to be very careful about whom you are running with. If you are hanging out with people who are negative, or who don’t share your ambitious spirit and determination, or if you’re hanging out with people who are sapping your energy, you’re sunk. They might even be people with the best of intentions. But if, in response to hearing about your ambitious career goals, they are saying things like, “I just want you to be happy, and I want you to be able to pay your bills, so don’t do anything risky,” or “You have a job, so, even if you’re a little bit unhappy, snap out of it,” or “You should be happy and grateful for what you have, rather than chasing a dream ... “ If the people you are spending most of your time with are saying these things to you, they are undermining you, and it’s time to move on. It’s time to find your one-of-my-kind ambitious tribe.
Whatever your goal, whatever your strategic plan, when you are working on something and it is 97% done, send it out into the world. That last 3% is wasted energies. Send out that resume to your dream company. Send out that polished e-mail asking someone you’ve never met, but whom you greatly admire, if they would consider giving you some mentoring advice. Send out that book proposal. Send your small business out into the world and let yourself have a chance to surprise yourself with what you can do. You don’t have to get it 100% perfect before you chase your dream. 100% perfect is an illusory and unnecessary goal. Don’t procrastinate. Go for it.
One final note: I can’t overemphasize the importance of lifelong learning, whether through books or tapes or classes or conferences or formal and informal advisors. I am a feminist Jungian and I love what Carl Jung said:
“We can be learning up until the moment of our death.”
He also said,
“Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes. The privilege of a lifetime is to become who you truly are.”
Remember: Make the contribution you were born to make. The world deserves to hear from you.
Debra Condren Ph.D., is a researcher, clinical psychologist and neuropsychologist-turned business psychologist, executive coach, entrepreneur, bestselling author, speaker, and career advisor. She said she is on a mission to inspire people to make the contribution they were born to make doing meaningful, challenging, lucrative work.
